Wednesday, October 18, 2006

Forgiveness?

Do Sikhs believe in forgiveness or not?
Sajaan the thug was a murderer and even he was forgiven by Guru Nanak. How many of us know people who have killed others? And yet we judge and condemn people for such minor incidents. I was reading the following article:
Canadian Sangat Protests Dhadrianwala Visit
The following was written:

"‘Amritdhaaris’ and ‘Sehajdhaari’ alike stood shoulder to shoulder protesting for 5 hours shouting ‘jaikaareh’ and slogans such as “Dhadrianwala murdabad,” “Guru maniyo Granth,” and “Raj Karega Khalsa.” "

So I take that people who have cut their hair are standing on street corners shouting 'Raj Karega Khalsa?' What's that supposed to mean?
Furthermore, people are saying Dhadrianwala murdabad, meaning Death to Dhadrianwala?
When do we chant death to people? as SIKHS!!!!?

He's alleged to wear a kalgi and have people touch his feet (not even close to the offense of a murder), and he's alleged to have apologized. Even the article states:
"It is alleged that ‘Dhadrianwala’ made an attempt to “clear his name” whilst in the home of the family who he stayed with as a guest in Surrey, BC."

My concern is besides the point of the man himself. My point is as stated above. Do people just like controversy and acting out of anger (shouting slogans)? What about forgiveness? I can't believe these 'Sikhs' who go around policing everybody else, while acting out of anger or any other of the five thieves. Hypocrisy is an injustice to all Sikhs.

26 comments:

b said...

yes.

Anonymous said...

A lot of ‘Sikhs’ today are sheep’s, whenever there is someone new in town everyone flocks to see who/what the flavour of the month is – not that there is anything wrong with that. When the opposite happens again people flock out as sheep. Most of the time people don’t even know the full story but everyone loves controversy and will turn out to follow the sheep in front of them..

Sifar said...

I believe this is an awakening of the Sangat. Similar awakening is also required in Sangat in India where you find numerous such self declared “Sants”. All the Sikh Sangat should firmly believe in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj as their only savior. “Saab Sikhan Ko Hukam Hai Guru Manyo Granth”. Self declared Sants like these have exploited enough sentiments of the Sangat and now their days are over.

After having read the article, I felt relieved that the Sangat protesting did so peacefully and did not enter the Darbar Hall out of the respect for Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj and did not create a similar situation like what happened in one of the Toronto's Gurdwaras where Inderjit “Gugga” was a guest speaker and members of Sangat fought with each other violently in front of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj.

These material hungry self declared Saints will confess to anything in order for them to be able to hold maximum programs and collect the most money on these foreign trips. Yes, forgiveness is important. But not all are the same. Different people are at different spiritual levels. The best way to forgive these self declared Saints is just not to let them hold any Darbar at any Gurdwara. For that the management committee of the Gurdwara have to get the Sangats consensus and then to decide as per the majority if the Sangant want to listen to the guest speakers and then to decide weather or not to invite such controversial speakers. Right Sangat in their right mind will never give their consensus on inviting such a controversial speaker and the management committee should respect the Sangats decision so that such controversies can be avoided. After all Sangat is the one who chose the management committee to serve. And if such Diwans are still held due to the majority decision, then one should peacefully protest and forgive the person in question by not attending such Diwans. Most of the Gurdwara committees have their interest in inviting such self declared Sants as with them come more sangat to the Gurdwara and the committee get more donation in the account, weather the money goes into their personal account or the Gurdwara account, that is only WaheGuru to oversee and decide.

Bhul Chuk Dee Khema....

Prabhu Singh said...

What I've read from the people who listened to Ranjit Singh Dhadrianwale on his tour is a report that he encourages people to bow to the Guru and receive Amrit. The available resources on the internet shows two camps, those protesting him and those listening to him. There hasn't been any reports from protestors listening to him. We're so quick to protest, but nobody has reported any incidents in his recent tour. So why can't he be forgiven, especially if he's asking for forgiveness?
Furthermore, even if he is guilty of gaining followers and whatever else, how can it be appropriate to chant 'Dhadrianwale murdabad?' How can we wish death upon him? That's so primitive.
Completely taking Ranjit Singh out of the picture, what surprised me the most was people chanting about death for somebody and people who cut their hair chanting 'Raj Karega Khalsa.' Even the guy they're protesting against lives by the Khalsa roop. It just seems like total hyprocisy for somebody who has cut hair to talk about the rule of the Khalsa, when they haven't even attempted to rule their own lives by the way of the Khalsa. I also think of those driving by seeing a bunch of angry Sikhs on street corners for hours. Wouldn't a better protest be to not show up? and show your disfavor for the management committee who invited him, by voting out the committee? No noise, no anger, no hypocritical protests, no death wishes, etc.
WaheGuru

Anonymous said...

Forgiveness is most important!
Yes self declared saints should be boycotted but not this way....
We need to educate people i.e. do more prachar .
Sikhi is all about Shakti And Bhakti. Its only a person who has power can forgive.Those who are weak and timid can not forgive as they have no choice.
So its wrong to think that forgiving is a flaw.
If you remember the story of princess Bhagwati who killed Guru Nanak's most beloved sikh( Bhai Tilka) by mistake while she was hunting. Guru Nanak forgave her and blessed her.
We need to do a lot...
We have to get rid of many flaws in our present day system and understand principals of Sikhi.
First of all we have to be united and we should not allow any one to call himself sant or baba. Anyone doing so should be boycotted by entire community and the practice will die out on its own.
I agree with you Prabhu when you say "It just seems like total hyprocisy for somebody who has cut hair to talk about the rule of the Khalsa, when they haven't even attempted to rule their own lives by the way of the Khalsa."

Saravjit you have a point when you say"These material hungry self declared Saints will confess to anything in order for them to be able to hold maximum programs and collect the most money on these foreign trips."
So both of you have a point!

Sifar said...

Bhai Prabhu Singh jee…

I am in for the forgiveness, by not attending the diwan if you do not support the person who is invited as guest speaker. I mentioned this in my earlier comment as well. As far as your question on non Sikhs protesting, you cannot control the crowd. If some Gursikhs are holding a legitimate protest, and the crowd (including non Sikhs) joins in, you can’t ask them to leave. However, your question to them (non Sikhs) is also legitimate.

You say that you got to know from the sources that have listen to Ranjit Singh about his genuine intentions. I was trying to find a link to a video somebody posted online of Ranjit Singh’s Diwan held somewhere, where he is seen clearly sitting in the presence of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj, with Sangat doing Matha tek to him, him blessing the Sangat by patting on their head / back, him talking on the cell phone in the middle of the Diwan, him sporting a Kalgi on his turban, him styling his moustaches etc. etc…, but unfortunately I could not find the link to it. Well, I’m not trying to change what ever opinion you have for this person. I have the following link for you where Prof. Darshan Singh jee on some radio talk show questions his such actions i.e. calling himself a “Sant” and a “Baba” and also the actions that I ve described above. I don’t know how well you will be able to understand this audio as it is in Punjabi but in the audio Ranjit Singh keeps going round and round upon being confronted by Prof. Darshan Singh jee. Also in the Audio, someone who has in recent past been to one of Ranjit Singh’s diwan, confronted Ranjit Singh when he said that people no more do Matha Tek to him, as this person says that people are still doing matha tek to him in the presence of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj….

I also know there are people pro and against Ranjit Singh, but to me it seems that the balance is tilted more towards people who oppose his actions. His last tour of Canada was almost flop as he was not welcome at most of the Gurdwara.

http://www.ggsacademy.com/talk/Ranjit%20Singh%20Talk%20show.mp3

ਮੰਗਲਾ ਸਾਧੂ ਸੰਗੀਤ said...

I don't like to see hypocrisy and insincere piety, but we have to extend our forgiveness to all.

I live in a sangat with a lot of people who cut their hair. Many of them serve the Guru with true devotion though. Whatever spiritual stage a person is at, we should accept that. There are many people who see the beauty of the Khalsa, but are themselves not ready to live as Khalsa. The Guru is for all humanity; the Khalsa are the keepers of the Guru's home and the Khalsa Rehit.

Prabhu Singh said...

Sarvjeet Singh Ji, I had seen part of a video once as well. From what people are saying now, which is that he's apologized and is just trying to help spread the word of the Guru, I thought it would be nicer if we forgave him. It just seems from his noteriety he could do a lot of good on his tours, if he's sincere. I was thinking maybe we should try to have a dialogue with him before protesting. Really I don't know enough about him or his real character to make a judgement, I just don't like the way the protest was carried out. What if Dhadrianwale wasn't attached to his name? would there be signs that say 'Singh Murdabad?' Still, I can't imagine wishing death on people when my life has it's own flaws which I could concentrate on. Thanks for the input Sarvjeet Singh Ji. I totally agree with you on the problem of fake Sants and Babas.

Mangala Sadhu Sangeet Singh Ji, thanks for the reminder. I'm not trying to discriminate or give a hard time to those who cut their hair. It just seems strange to me that they would talk about Khalsa, while protesting somebody that is in the Khalsa roop and supposedly encourages many people to receive amrit.

Anonymous said...

inder mohan singh:
i like my prabhu veer is sayibg here. its not good to wish death for someone and its not sikhi. and people who have cut there hairs need to see themselves in mirror. are they without any flaws. do they follow guru granth sahib ji? they must learn something from guru granth sahib ji and lead a happy life.

satvinder said...

Prabhu veer ji...

I personally think your post below [though it would be a one line answer] is a perfect ideal. There is one light in all.

Forgiveness is paramount. Not even going to get involved in the debate about sant / mahapurkh. It's been done to death.

My personal view on a general lever is that if you feel you don't have anything to learn from someone then move away quietly; no need to slander people for they may offer something of value to others.

Anonymous said...

My dear Gursikh brothers,
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji Ki Fateh!
I have gone through the healthy debate about Ranjit Singh.It was really pleasing that majority of people in Canada were against Ranjit Singh.We should raise our voice against self proclaimed sants.Nobody was called sant during our Guru's time.It was satisfying that Sangat in Foreign countries is educated and take guidance from Guru Granth Sahib only.Unfortunately situation in Punjab is not that good.Sikhs do not read Gur Granth Sahib and take guidance from Guru.They go to self proclaimed sants/babas and follow them.So many sants/babas have come up in Punjab.But young boys in villages are getting their hair cut and losing sikh identity.This is quite alarming.There are many many gurudwaras,pacharaks,sant/raagi jathas in panjab.But sikhi is going down and down.These people go to foreign countries and I do not know what they do there,when so much of work is to be done in Panjab itself.
About Hair cut boys shouting slogans Raj Karega khalsa etc.it is really unfortunate.It is our duty to bring these boys to main stream.they have gone asray from the sikhi path.They have to be brought to line by love.No purpose will be served by hating them.We should do ardass that Guru Maharaj bless them.

Sifar said...

Bhai Balbir Singh jeeoo...

It is very easy to understand. The only thing that these self proclaimed Sant or Babas go on foreign trips is for Maya... I mean hard cash, currency notes... and it becomes 1 x 58 or 1 x 47, or 1 x 40 when they come back to India.... To a real Saadh, it doesnot matter weather he is in India, or America or Africa... He is over and above these pieces os paper...

Bhul Chuk Dee Khema....

Anonymous said...

Dear Satvinder,
As you say “if you feel you don't have anything to learn from someone then move away quietly;” But What if Some one is disrespecting Guru ! You can not move on quietly then. We have to protest but not by shouting Murdabad.
Then you say “they may offer something of value to others.” But then they may misguide your kids. You can not ignore them if they impart wrong values to your kids.
I don’t mean any thing against any one particularly, but we all have to protect our future generation from taking a wrong turn! Any one claiming to be a preacher but doing things against Sikhi should be boycotted.

Saravjit I agree with you that Maya is behind all this. So we should donate judiciously
ਅਕਲੀ ਪੜਿ ਕੈ ਬੁਝੀਐ ਅਕਲੀ ਕੀਚੈ ਦਾਨੁ ॥ (੧੨੪੫-੫, ਸਾਰੰਗ, ਮ ੧)

Anonymous said...

Bhai Sifar ji,
Thanks for informing that these people go on foreign trips for "Maya".These people themselves are drenched in "Maya"and you can imagine what sort of teachings they will impart to Sangat.If our gurudwara management commitees be more selective and invite only those people who are a role model for sangat,I think they will be more effective.Parcharaks/teachers or raagi jathas are themselves not true sikhs have negative effect on the Sangat specially on youngsters.
Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh.

Anonymous said...

WAHGEGURU JI KAA KHAALSAA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH


sehajdhaari doesnot mean a person who has cut his hair but still claims to be a Sikh

sehajdhaari as word suggest is the person who is slowly and progressively converting to Sikhism


sehajdhaari can call himself a sehajdhaari or be called a sehajdhaari only when he/she starts growing KES (hair)/ stops cutting KES


and people who are everyday shaving their hair off their head and face are being called sahajdhaaris



politics is much talked here on this blog
there is nothing in Sikh politics to be talked.
it is better to keep oneself away


WAHEGURU JI KAA KHAALSAA WAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Anonymous said...

Ranjit Singh has done more for the sikhs around the world than these so called rif rafs of uneducated sikhs from the punjab (majority of the canadian sikh)who have been flocking in Canada, cut their hairs and get manipulated by the thugs who run the gurudwaras in Canada. These later group of rif rafs are just jealous that a man so young with such knoweldge has achieved so much around the world. As a fourth generation sikh in USA, it was ombly listening to Ranjit Singh that did I start to understand about our sikh relegion. He has always encouraged or demanded that people respect the GGS ji and take amrit. The Candian issue was pathetic and like I had run by these rif rafs from Punjab. Yea right raaj karega Khlasa from these fools that are known to booze and smoke - who doesn't know that in Toronto.

Harnav Bir Singh Khalsa said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Harnav Bir Singh Khalsa said...

waheguru jiyo .. i totally agree with Bhai Pabhu Singh ji ..

few people here are saying it time and agin ..'self-procliamed' self-proclaimed'...waheguru! when did he say he was a sant.. did he ever??? i cant find a single instance.. and if going by sikh ethics of calling oneself or the other ..what all good we are doing by calling him dhadrianwala!!!

can't anyone address him like... bhai ranjit singh ji .. or bhai sahib ji ... waheguru ...this address might help us to realise that he is our gur-bhai(brother by relation of common guru) and then we might start seeing things in a more dignified manner.

love and compassion is sikhi .. and we proudly roam around by dumping that aside..and adding 'bhull-chukk di khima' one-liner at the end! akaal!


and bhai/bibi anonymous ji .. please read Rehat Maryada for the definition of 'Sahaj-Dhari' ..it says who lives in rehat and is 'Sabat-soorat' (uncut hair that means...) and is making her/his mind for taking amrit... is a sehaj dhari ..


and .. about politics discussion...waheguru! come on! .. we belong to the Piri and Miri culture...

Akaal hi Akaal :)

Sifar said...

Bhai harnav bir Singh jeeoo... I have some links for you to watch.

Ranjit Singh 1

Ranjit Singh 2

And please listen to this radio talk show where Ranjit Singh is confronted by Prof. Darshan Singh jee (I hope you know who he is) and all Ranjit Singh do is provide lame excuses and keep going round in circles. Let us talk after you hear this MP3.

Radio talk show debate of Ranjit Singh with Prof. Darshan Singh jee

If the above link do not work, please cut and paste the folllowing link in your web browser and it will take some time for this MP3 to download and it is in Punjabi…


http://www.ggsacademy.com/talk/Ranjit%20Singh%20Talk%20show.mp3

And yes I will again say that Bhul Chuk dee Khema… and by this I mean if my words hurt anybody’s sentiments, I apologize for that but I still stand by what I have said. Anybody is free to follow Ranjit Singh if they wish or think he is a great Sant. Not me...

SikhsRus said...

You know, I just saw an old picture of Maharaja Ranjit Singh with other Khalsas yesterday (wish I could remeber the site or link) and guess what, almost all of them are wearing kalgis on their turbans. I don't know what the big deal is people. I would think if someone is wearing a kalgi that is good news since they are trying to follow in the footsteps of Guru Gobind Singh. I wish all Khalsas wore kalgis like they show it in the pictures.

Sifar said...

Manjit singh jee,

Then I believe he (Ranjit Singh) is doing nothing wrong when he is letting Sangat do Matha Tek to him (as Sangat would do Matha Tek to Gurus), Asking Sangat to Sing his own (kachi) composed Bani (Gurus composed their bani, so can he)... coz according to you he is on the footsteps of our Gurus...

WaheGuru....

Anonymous said...

Perhaps if this Sifar guy checked the YOUTUBE out, you will see Bhindaranwale in 1984 in the Golden Temple(yes Golden Temple being interviwed by an american reporter from ABC). Many people prostated to him (metha tek) with money yes with MONEY. As he walks in the precint of the Golden Temple, men and women (and especially women falling all over his feet) metha tek to him as he walks along the precints of the Golden Temple. Nobody seems to talk about that or seems to say anything. Sikh women has the habit of falling on knees all the time all over. There is nothing new. Sifar, how many times have you taken people to take amrit, how many hours a day do you spend taking to sikhs preaching about the guru's. I guess niat, niat!!!! (mean never). I guess people like you are usually butt sleepers , self appointed kings of morality, divisive morons who don't belong in the house of guru nanak. Spend your time doing something worthwhile rather than commenting on issues you have no knowledge about or are qualified to make any judgement. I guess you are a school kid.

Sifar said...

I normally would not respond to Anonymous comments. But I need to thank you Mr. (or whatever your tittle may be) Anonymous for letting me know that I am in school. Yes, I am in school; Guru’s school. I wish you were in it too. If you were, then you would be able to better see the difference between entertainers and Martyrs, freedom fighters and panth de Sewadars. If I have a chance to meet such GurSikhs in my life time, I would definitely try to gather dust of their lotus feet. I may not have preached on Sikhi (as I have yet to learn a lot), I may not have lead people to take Amrit, and I may be a moron, but not moron enough follow any entertainer. And you are right, I am not worth being in house of Dhan Dhan Guru Sri Guru Nanak Dev Sahib jee Maharaaj, but He showed mercy upon me and let me in. And you are right again to advice me to do something better than wasting my time on people like you (who cannot read the comments where it is said that anyone is free to follow any xyz Sant if they feel like). Now one advice from my side to Anonymous people like you. Be Sardar enough (if you are one) and stop hiding behind the keyboard (like kids)….

Prabhu Singh said...

Let's please be civil with each other. We all have strong opinions and to WaheGuru they're all the same.
That video is very incriminating and if that's all I knew about Ranjit Singh Dadrianwale, then I'm sure I wouldn't much appreciate him. However, the reports are that he has apologized for such behavior and that many people appreciate his efforts. I figured we should forgive him if he has really changed, and try to see what positive things he's brought to the Sikh Panth. There's a lot I don't know about him, but I still don't like the way people protested.

Harnav Bir Singh Khalsa said...

@ bhai sifar ji ...humbly i want to do a 'benti'...

Singh ji ...you have constantly been using one word 'Dhadrianwale's folllowers'.waheguru! who all are 'dhaddrianwale's followers'? nobody is following him.Its Guru who has to be followed and please atleast take me out of followers list.

I think discussion has got out of the track.Prabhu Singh ji asked about the present situation and about forgiving him.


Akaal

kaur said...

Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!

I know this is an old post, but there's something I really want to comment on.

Someone said: Then you say “they may offer something of value to others.” But then they may misguide your kids. You can not ignore them if they impart wrong values to your kids.

Let me tell you how all of your kids really feel. I'm one of them.

One day the youth at our local Gurdwara decided to plan a seva day. We were all excited and it took a long time to plan out. Guess what happened when we got to the Gurdwara. >< Many of our parents decided to hold a protest against a certain Baba that had been invited. It was depressing. It was frustrating. No one achieved anything except for disrespecting Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee.

Your kids are tired of all this pointless fighting and hipocracy on everyone's part.

one love?